Well I asked Pat for an “assist” on the debate going on in the comments section of the Bible post, and once again, the Great Pat Miron has outdone himself! See document below for more information than you ever thought was possible for one person to know! (Love you too, Pat!)
Hi, I’m the “Pat Miron” Kristy mentions from time to time. She has asked that I comment on “THE COMMENTS” and because she is one of my favorite people in the whole world, I’m happy to do so.
My comments are in green [NO, not envy; IRISH! J ] so our discussion will be easier to follow.
Kristy’s comments are In Blue
Additionally, I found THIS supporting evidence for the Church’s inclusion of ALL books of the ORIGIONAL Christian Bible:
The Protestants of the sixteenth century objected to the additional books because of the doctrinal teachings of these books. The Second Book of Machabees, for example, contains the doctrine of purgatory, of prayers and sacrifices for the dead (12:39-46). The book of Tobias teaches the importance in the eyes of God of good works. The Protestants could not reject some without excluding all of the additional books. Hence, in drawing up their list of Old Testament books they went back to the first collection of Biblical books of the Palestinian Jews. They removed the additional books, which had been in the Bible up till 1517 and placed them at the end of the Bible in a special appendix. In addition, they labelled them as “apocryphal” (spurious, uninspired), a designation which helped to lower them in the estimation of Protestant readers.
It seems reasonable in that we are discussing the Bible, to point out the duplicity of Luther, Calvin, and frankly all Protestants who knowingly and freely choose to NOT USE THE CATHOLIC BIBLE. Why?
This and the errant understanding that everyone is qualified to interpret God’s Holy Writ, are the foundation of sand that has caused the proliferation of Christian church’s, faiths and different beliefs. Keep in mind there can logically be ONLY one truth on every issue. Many opinions, but only one truth.
KJ Bible 2 Tim. 3: 16 “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:”
Douay Rheims Bible 2 Tim. 3:16 “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: “
If one is to find any merit in the Bible; one must accept the premise that the entire Bible is true [BUT NOT necessarily factual [Mt.5:29, Mt. 6:22, and Mt.7:3 for examples]. Any other understanding would make the bible meaningless as “God’s Mission Statement and Instruction Manual.”
Therefore, it is clearly evident that Luther and others of his group, acted against God’s single truth. If “ALL” the Bible was and is Inspired; then there exist NO GROUNDS to shorten it or alter it’s teachings. God is All Wise and All Perfect; incapable of error. So on what basis did Luther abort God‘s Inspired Bible?
In Luther’s time; Protestantism was founded on lies, and today’s Protestants, while not maintained “on lies,” nevertheless is founded on the soft sands of a multitude of errant thoughts and misunderstandings. [2 Tim. 3:16]
Hi s Holiness Pope Benedict XVI, in his first homily [speech] upon accepting the responsibility of “the Key’s to the Kingdom of God, and becoming our Pope” [Mt. 16:19], echoed his predecessor, The Great Pope john Paul II, on the understanding of “TRUTH.”
QUOTE: “There cannot be your truth and my truth or there would be no truth.” Is the only possible, and logical understanding of “truth.”
Our God in His Infinite Wisdom has done the following:
Created a Universe with Billions of stars and planets.
Of these Billions of stars and planets that we are aware of in 2010, ONLY the planet Earth has the capacity to support life forms.
On Planet Earth God placed humanity
On Planet Earth God placed His Son Jesus Christ
God sent His Son to Planet Earth because only humanity; among the countless living species is GIFTED with a mind [not brain, mind], an intellect, a freewill and a everlasting soul. WHY?
All of these gifts from God, to humanity alone are “Spiritual gifts.” Quantify for me your mind. What is it’s shape, color, size, weight? We can’t because like God Himself these are “spiritual things.” So WHY is humanity so Blessed?
Only humanity possesses the capacity to know God and to thank God.
Isa.43: 7 every one who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made.” Isa.43: 21 “the people whom I formed for myself that they might declare my praise.” Rom.14: 11 “for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God.” 1Pet.1: 7 “so that the genuineness of your faith, more precious than gold which though perishable is tested by fire, may redound to praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.” Rev. 19: 5 And from the throne came a voice crying, “Praise our God, all you his servants, you who fear him, small and great.”
Humanity is Blessed with these Spiritual Gifts precisely in-order that we are enabled to freely chose to “Know, Love and Serve God in this life; that we MIGHT be happy with Him for all eternity in the Eternal life“ [Catholic Catechism]. BUT the same gifts that permit us to freely chose to know, love and serve God [by Obedience] also allow us to freely choose NOT to accept God’s Church, God’s Bible, God’s plan [not ours… GOD”S] for our personal salvation.
From “ THE ROCK,” is not merely words; it is the description used by Jesus Himself in describing His New Covenant, His New Church and His New Faith…. All SINGULAR. [Mt. 16:15-19, Mt. 18:18, Mt. 28:19-20].
FACT: There are nearly 100 references to [ONLY] “One Church” in the NT. Here are four examples:
John 10:16 And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd.
Eph. 2:19 “So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, [SINGULAR] built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; [SINGULAR in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.”
Eph. 4: 4 “There is one body [One Church] and one Spirit, [One set of beliefs] just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, 5 one Lord, [One God] one faith, [One set of doctrine and dogma] one baptism,[ By water in the Trinity] 6 one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. 7 But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore it is said, “When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men.”
Eph. 5: 23 “Christ is the head of the church [SINGULAR] , his body,” [SINGULAR]
I sincerely apologize for such a lengthy introduction; but it is necessary that you know what I share in not simply what I believe; but firmly founded in Sacred Scripture.
The Lutheran and Anglican Bibles still carry these books in the appendix or give them at least a secondary place. But the other Protestant churches reject them entirely. In 1827 the British and Foreign Bible Society decided not to print or handle Bibles that contained the additional books and not to aid financially companies that published Bibles containing them. As a result these books have practically disappeared from Protestant Bibles. The Catholic Church has always considered these books as inspired and of the same rank as the other Old Testament books. Her attitude is based upon the following facts
5) The oldest Christian lists of Biblical books contain the additional books. In 382 Pope Damasus in a Roman Council issued a formal list of Old and New Testament books and the list contains the same books as we have in our Bibles.
6) Finally, Christian art of the first four centuries – especially that found in the catacombs and cemeteries – furnishes among others the following illustrations from the additional books: Tobias with the fish (Tobias 6), Susanna (Daniel 13), Daniel and the dragon (Daniel 14), the angel with the three children in the fiery furnace (Daniel 3:49), Habacuc and Daniel in the lion’s den (Daniel 14:35).
In conclusion, let us point out that since they follow the synagogue in their rejection of the additional books of the Old Testament, the Protestants should in all logic follow it in its rejection of the New Testament and of Christ Himself.
So those are the factual differences– to put this into historic context, we need to further examine the life of the “Great Reformer” (or “Unfortunate Heretic”, depending on who you ask!), Martin Luther. Changing the Bible– eliminating books and also blatantly changing and elminating phrases– hinges on the political and religious climate of the Reformation era.
Now I’ll be honest, one blog post is hardly enough space to really deeply examine this issue. Frankly, I’m not entirely certain I’m a competent enough academic to examine it using only the internet as an available resource.
“I must admit, I don’t really understand why our Bible lacks books. I’ve never really “read up” on it. I don’t have much a feeling on it one way or another. [POINT 1]
I do find it funny, however, that the books that we do have in common can be interpreted so differently! See above – your quote where the author says, “what it REALLY means is…” How do they know what it “really means”? How do any of us? I guess we can all claim to know, but I don’t think that we will until we get to heaven. Until then we can just give it our best guess. [POINT 2]
But I would never claim to know what it “really means.” I would say what I BELIEVE it means or THINK it means, but not claim to absolutely *know*. KWIM” [POINT 3]
[Point 1] We know HOW the CC interprets the Bible is thee TRUTH? Because God Himself guarantees it’s truth. We have given a biblical reference [2 Tim. 3:16] as evidence that Luther and company were in serious error right from the beginning. Denying God’s Word is the same as denying God.
The motive for Luther’s actions were to “sell his new found religion” in opposition to what was commonly held as Divinely Inspired Truths held and taught by the Catholic Church for well over 1,000 years. In order to be successful Luther’s Religion [Let’s be clear that what we are talking about] had to 1. Be SIGNIFINATLY different and 2. Salvation had to be SIGNIFINATLY Easier to accomplish. These needs simply cannot be fit into any theology of TRUTH.
The Bible is a Catholic Book, and the CC is thee Bible Church, having in a manner of speaking “birthed the bible..” HOW SO?
Secular history and common logic both affirm this.
FACT: It was what we know today to be the CC that collected the books of the OT to be included in the Canon, [official list of books] with the guidance of the Holy Spirit included in the OT.
FACT: All of the authors of the NT are men we know today to have been the first Catholics. [even though this term would not be applied to them until about 400 years later]
FACT: Today’s CC was THE ONLY Christian in existence until Luther’s Revolt of about 1,600 A.D. Yes the GREAT SCHISM took place in the Eleventh Century; BUT these churches remain connected to the Catholic Vine Christ Himself founded, in beliefs and practices that are very much the same, while not identical.
FACT: Because history shows there were no other Christian Churches, and that the ONLY Bibles in use were Catholic Bibles; until the King James, in about 1610 A.D….. The Bible simply has to be a Catholic Origin book. Even logic permits to other conclusion.
FACT: By and through God’s Master Plan it is evident that ONLY The CC, is the ONLY Church founded by Christ, and the ONLY Church that has the assurance of Christ Himself that it “cannot teach in error on matters of faith and morals.” WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT IN THE BIBLE?
Matt.28: 18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me“. …. This authority was given by the Father to the HUMAN – NATURE of Jesus. Christ, as God always possessed it. It was given in conjunction to the merits of Christ earned by His passion and death. Thus Jesus in BOTH His human nature and His Divine nature possessed the power and authority to pass this on to Peter and His successors in the ONLY Church actually founded by Christ
Matt. 16: 19, and 18:18… v.19 I [Jesus] will give you [Peter and My new Church] the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” … v.18 Truly, Truly I [Jesus] say to you, [the Apostles] whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
Mathew 16 gives the authority to Peter as the Head of the Church, while Matthew 18 extends similar powers IN CONJUNCTION with Peter to the other Apostles and today’s Bishops and Priest.
John 14: 16 – 17 And I [Jesus] will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, [the Holy Spirit] to be with you for ever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you. NOTE: God cannot deny Himself.
John 17: 14-19 .“I [Jesus] have given them [Peter and the Apostles] thy word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I do not pray that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth. As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. 19 And for their sake I [Jesus] consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth.”
One can search even in the KJB version, of STRONGS CONCORDANCE [which is a non-Catholic site] for the meaning of the words “to bind,” and “to loose.”
These were common Rabbi terms, enforceable at Jewish law, understood by everyone at the time they were spoken in the context of “the keys.” They were authority of complete and uninhibited Governance [in this case of God’s new Church.] The holder of the keys answered ONLY to the King Himself. So in this case it was Peter as Pope, being placed in complete charge of the new CC, by Jesus and responsible to ONLY God Himself.
It included the ability to among other things make laws, void laws, interpret the bible, and the host of other day to day decisions necessary to run this new Church in the light of MATT. 28:18-20. “And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”
[Point 2] The above gives the biblical foundation, the direct permission of God Himself for ONLY His CC to interpret His Holy Words. WHY?
Until “forced by Luther’s pending decision to make the Bible available to everyone, and allow everyone to self interpret it; the CC made every effort to withhold this “same- right” from the laity. WHY?
Acts 8:30 So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and asked, “Do you understand what you are reading?” And he said, “How can I, unless some one guides me?”
King James Version 1 Pet. 20 “Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.”
Douay-Rheims 1 Pet. 20 “Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost.”
The RSV Catholic Bible: 2nd. Peter Chapter One verse 20 “First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, 21 because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. “
Keep in mind that when these words were spoken, written and placed in the Formal Canon the ONLY Church in existence was today’s Catholic Church.
So again we are confronted with a violation of God’s Law by what Luther advocated. And look at the consequences.
History seems clearly to affirm the Catholic Position as being right in that after nearly 2,000 years of continuous service to God’s Truths, the CC is still ONE with some 27 branches, all still connected to the Vine planted by Jesus as His CC. While Protestants have in a period of about four hundred years, MANY HUNDREDS, perhaps thousands???? Of separate sects, faiths, sets of beliefs and churches. One can easily see the effectiveness of God’s direct participation and guidance of His CC.
Once again we find a great deal of Biblical support for ONLY trained leaders of Christ CC being able to READ and translate the meaning of the Bible correctly.
Rom. 10: 17 “So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ.”
Eph.1: 13-14 “In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit which is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory”
Col. 4: 16 And when this letter has been read among you, have it read also in the church of the La-odice’ans; and see that you read also the letter from La-odice’a. And say to Archip’pus, “See that you fulfill the ministry which you have received in the Lord.”
1Thes.5: 27 “I adjure you by the Lord that this letter be read to all the brethren”
1Tim.4: 13 “Till I come, attend to the public reading of scripture, to preaching, to teaching”
Rev.1: 3 “Blessed is he who reads aloud the words of the prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written therein; for the time is near.”
Acts.4: 4 “But many of those who heard the word believed; and the number of the men came to about five thousand”
Acts 10:  While Peter was still saying this, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word
[POINT 3] Not only does the CC claim to know “The Biblical Truth,” She is the ONLY place one can find it. WHY?
I’ve shared some of the bible evidence , let’s now look at a different perspective: Let’s suppose you were going to start a new business. Your very ambitious and want this to develop into a World Wide Organization. You have at your disposal what you need to get it started.
What are some of the steps you’d likely take?
You’d start with goals [Matt. 28:19-20]
You’d set a business plan that included how this company would be run after your “gone.” [Matt. 16: 15-19, Matt. 18:18]
You would write a Mission Statement and the necessary instruction manuals. [Rom. 10:17, Eph. 1: 13-14]
Christ did all this for His CC and much more; by remaining it the Church Himself, Physically, [Eucharist] and by insuring the constant and ever-lasting Presence of the Holy Spirit to guide Her. His TRUTH is clear, and MUST BE expressed by His Catholic Church [John 10:16 And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd.] as is God’s own plan and mandate. [John 14]
Matt.5: 19 “Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”
Matt.10: 24-25 “A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master; it is enough for the disciple to be like his teacher, and the servant like his master. If they have called the master of the house Be-el’zebul, how much more will they malign those of his household.”
Matt.16: 12 “Then they understood that he did not tell them to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sad’ducees. [today’s Protestant Preachers; no matter how well intended]
Luke.6: 40 “A disciple is not above his teacher, but every one when he is fully taught will be like his teacher.” My Mentor used to say often: “you can’t share what you do not have.” Logical and true. And that is the problem in a nutshell; protestants do not possess the truth, which God permits ONLY to reside in His Church.
That’s just the thing tho, Andi– Catholics do not believe in personal interpretation of the Bible.
It didn’t even EXIST until Martin Luther’s time– the next post will examine why that was.
The Church since the beginning held councils, in part to determine the meanins of the Scripture– these meetings date back to the time the Scripture itself was written! In order for it to be canonized (declared divinely inspired by God) by the Church, it had to be very VERY carefully studied. Through study and canonization, the meanings behind the Scriptures were determined.
The concept of personal interpreation of scripture is actually very dangerous because it leads people to use Scripture out of context to justify their own sins (which we see all the time, on the BB’s for example, when people have said that they give their 10% tithe and that’s all they need to give– totally leaving out the part about caring for widows and orphans, or the story of the Good Samaritan, etc).
Catholics don’t interpret Scripture personally. We follow the Church, left to us by Jesus, to tell us what it means (if it’s not straightforwardly clear).
AND our books are not the same, even the ones that ARE the same– Catholic Bibles (Douay-Rheims version) have exact phrases from the origional Greek. The next post will examine which PHRASES Martin Luther scrapped from the books that still do exist! And I believe, in one case, he eliminated an entire CHAPTER from the Gospels! So not only did he choose not to include the seven books of the Septuagint, he also “edited” the books that had already been in existence since the canonization of the Bible itself– primarily because they directly negated his concept of easy salvation without sacraments and works.
(Which, I will one day convince you with factual evidence because you are an academic and enjoy that sort of thing, is quite dangerous and false!)
To be continued….
Hmmmm… that was still MAN interpreting the Bible. Regardless of who they were or what esteem “the” church held them in. No?
No, not just men; Catholic Men guided and protected by God Himself. Any explanation by any Catholic that fully conforms to what thee CC Teaches has God Himself as personal witness of the truth.
Anyone, Catholic or non-Catholic that holds any position that is in opposition to what the CC say’s the Bible means is WRONG. And that friends is God’s position, not just mine; not just that of the CC.
And sacraments to achieve salvation? Again, one man’s or one “council’s” interpretation. You have to understand that your saying the Catholic council of “the” church decided this means little to me. Just as me saying that I believe my church is THE church and a bunch of people got together back in the day and decided what the Bible meant would mean little to you.
This post is already too long for comfort so I don’t want to get into [but I can J ] a discussion of the Sacraments. As a FYI… It is Jesus Himself who founded the Seven Sacraments. Four explicitly, and three implicitly [keep in mind Matt. 16:15-19]
Explicitly in the Bible
Baptism John 3:5, Matt. 28:19
Confirmation @ Pentecost John 20: 20-22
Eucharist Matt. 26: 26-28, Mark 14: 22-24, Luke 22:19-21, John all of Chapter six but especially verses 47,48,50,51,53,54, and 55 [and yes I am aware of the common interpretation is easily proven to be wrong of v. 63], and Paul in 1 Cor. 11:22-29.
Confession 1 John 1: 8-10, 1 John 5:16-17, John 20: 20-23
Implicitly referenced in the Bible.
Marriage John 2: 1-11
Priesthood based on the OT model of priest going back as far as Abraham] Lk. 6:13, Jn. 15:16, Acts 6:5, Acts 15:40, Heb. 5:1 and acts 1:26
And Anointing the sick James 5: 14-15
Of the GREATEST SIGNIFIANCE is that four of the seven sacraments have the God granted power in different ways and to different degrees to remit sin.
So now you can see for yourself, they are NOT a human invention, not even strictly speaking a Catholic invention; the originate in Proper Understanding God’s Divine Will and are ALL Biblically supported.
The difference is that I (a wretched protestant) do NOT believe that one church has all the answers. We are all part of one church and it doesn’t have to be the Catholic church. Dangerous to you, commonsensical to me.
One Church [the CCV] either has as God Ordained all of the answers, all the truth on matters of Faith and morals; or there is “no absolute truth,” which is the silly position of many. 1 + 1 equal 2 [even with mittens on]. Were this not THEE TRUTH, the bible would be meaningless. Keep in mind John Chapters 14 and 17.
My mom says that you must be of the anti-Vatican 2 leaning. Yes?
I’d enjoy discussing this with your mom.
I hasten to point out that Vatican II issued NO dogma’s, issued NO New Doctrines, and taught nothing truly “new” to the CC. For those of us who have read and studied the documents, it is painfully clear that it was NOT anything Vatican II said or actually did; but the prideful [Luther types] who felt that they too knew more and knew better than the Pope and the Magisterium [the group of truly faithful Catholic Bishops that support the Pope]. It was the forced application of “the Spirit of Vatican II,” not the teaching that have taken us to where we are today. But God remains in charge.
Eh, believe what you want. That is fine and within your right. I don’t believe that you are *wrong* per se, and that will remain the main difference between my faith and traditional Catholics. I would never surmise to tell someone that I alone have THE truth and know without a shadow of a doubt the absolute only way to live it out. I am not saying truth is subjective, I am saying that we all choose to PRACTICE it in different ways. And I have no fear of death or where I will be when I die. So no worries.
As it is well that you hold that view. For it is the Catholic Church ALONE with the mandate, the authority, the GRAVE MORAL OBLIGATION from Jesus Himself, that requires the CC to do what precisely what you would not do [ and actually cannot do.] You can’t share what you don’t have J .
There was recently a discussion on the BB about why other faiths do not respect Catholics (or something like that, I did not participate). Or misunderstand it, or something. Folks were all up in arms that we all “misunderstand”. I don’t misunderstand, it is just not how I choose to live out my faith. And the general Catholic (traditional, anyway) premise of “we’ve got it right, you are serving God all wrong” is why many are turned off to it (within other faiths).
What Protestants either do not understand [which is understandable to me at least], or refuse to accept; is that the CC has a God given mandate [Matt. 28: 19-20], to teach. To teach the truth, to teach the truth to the whole World. Anything less is failing our Mission and would be a lie. We don’t even have the option from God not to teach and preach.
Because we are right, everyone else has by default to be wrong. Blame God, not the CC and not us Catholics. It’s His Plan.
There are many things I disagree with regarding Catholicism but they all have to do with the practice of it. I do not think that any one who has truly been saved and happens to be Catholic is going to go to hell because they confess to a priest (not Christ directly), pray to the dead to ask for them to pray for them, practice the sacraments in a legalistic manner, think that a relationship with Christ is not necessary or a myriad of other things. To me they are not salvic issues.
This one would require too much space in an already too long reply to respond to now. If anyone desires more information, or wants to discuss what I shared, my personal e-mail is p-miron@ hotmail.com
All the Apostles were Catholic??? Oy.
Matt.10: 1-2 “And he [Jesus] called to him his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every infirmity. The names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zeb’edee, and John his brother; …. Mark.3: 14 “And he appointed twelve, to be with him, and to be sent out to preach” …. Mark.6: 7 “And he called to him the twelve, and began to send them out two by two, and gave them authority over the unclean spirits.”…. Luke.6: 13 “And when it was day, he called his disciples, and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles; “
Yep; all the Apostles were and are Catholic. It was the Only Church Christ founded.
Each of the seven rejected books is quoted by the early Church Fathers as “Scripture”
But here is the real question: Which OT would you rather use-the OT used by Jesus, the NT writers and the early Church, or the OT used by the Jews who rejected Christ and persecuted Christianity?
If your Bible includes the seven books, you follow Jesus and the early Church. If your Bible omits the seven books, you follow the non-Christian Jews at Jamnia and Martin Luther-a man who wanted to throw out even more books (James, Esther, Revelation), and who deliberately added the word “alone” to Sacred Scripture in his German translation of Romans 3:28.
lol the thing is, Andi, MY Church was YOUR chuch too for the first 1600 years! so when I say “MY Church’s councils”, they’re yours too. It was the only Christianity that existed!
That “bunch of people back in the day” were the Apostles themselves (which is making me giggle).Sacraments arent ANYONE’s interpretation. Much of the Bible (in it’s origional and altered forms) tells us quite clearly that sacraments are given to us by God as a means of accepting His grace. We accept them. Or we reject them.
My job isn’t to convince anybody of anything. Conversion comes from God, not from men. My job is to inform people of the Truth. You’re in it now, sister– you read the blog, you’ve been exposed to it, and on Judgement Day when you stand before the Lord, you won’t be able to say you didn’t know! lol!
I think (having explored Protestantism with Dan when first married and found it almost universally to be biblically unsound- and at the time we WERE using the uncomplete, King James version) that until a person is ready to REALLY explore and consider opposing views, they can’t really be sure what they belive is correct.
Just because I believe it, that doesn’t make it true. Millions of atheists believe there is no God at all. Just because they believe it, doesn’t make it TRUTH! Unfortunately, history and solid, verifiable FACT tells us that millions of Protestants were led astray about 400 years ago. The generations of Protestants today often times even know the history of their own churches, which how we’ve arrived at this “all paths to God” society.
Which is just baloney.
So my question to you (not you specifically Andi, but “YOU” the general readership) is this– are you willing to risk it?! Are you REALLY willing to risk that Martin Luther didnt have a political alterior motive in deleting sections from the Bible and selling this view of easy salvation? What if you’re wrong? What then?!
I’ve been down both sides– I’ve examined Scripture with a room full of Baptists, BEFORE we became traditional Catholics. I was married (the first time) in a Methodist church. We explored Lutheranism and Prebyterianism. I challenged what I believed FULLY, without operating under any assumptions about those faiths. I, like the many Protestants flocking the Catholic Church at the moment, found them to be…incomplete…at best.
More to come! Keep reading! You just never know Andi
Oh yeah, and I’m not EXACTLY anti-Vatican II. The Church has always had the power to “bind and loose” (which comes directly from Scripture) the practices of the faithful.
The problem is that (and this is VERY, VERY simplified), the AMERICAN Churches often took liberties with what was NOT specifically noted in the Second Vatican Council– for example, headcovering in the prseence of the Lord (Eucharist).
The Second Vatican Council mentioned NOTHING about headcovering– it was omitted entirely. Thusly, the populous took that to mean it was no longer necessary, and in many parts of the country, have done away with the practice. Such is not the case in other parts of the world!
Lots of little issues like that. Mine is not an issue with the Council– mine is an issue with the way American churches (ome, not all) have taken liberty with the Council decrees.
And, I don’t follow Martin Luther, I follow God.
Ahhhh, actually your unwittingly not following either Luther [your choice] or God, in the manner God wants, and demands to be followed.
I don’t know if he was 100% right or wrong. I think every man who has ever lived (other than Jesus) has his or her own agenda! That’s why I do not like the KJV of the Bible. It was a King paying people to translate the Bible for him! Hello?! Bit of a complex there? LOL
FACT: God say’s there is only One true Bible; and it’s not the King James as we have evidenced above.
Don’t waste your time trying to convert people like me to be Catholic! Worry about those who truly do not know God at all! Those are the folks we should all be concerned about. That’s why I mostly don’t get into theological discussions. It’s a bunch of us on the right path wasting our time when people are literally dying without any knowledge of God!
Like Kristy, I’m not in the Conversion business. I leave that to God.
FYI.. The position of the CC is that “all salvation flows through the CC.” This by virtue of a common Baptism and belief in the trinity. However, ONLY Catholics are BLESSED with the Real Presence of God [you may want to read the bible verses I referenced above on the Eucharist, before you laugh this of. God can’t lie], and ONLY Catholics have the Sacrament of KNOWN forgiveness of sins. Yes I know, you say you know; You don’t, your just hoping. Catholics actually, FACTUALLY KNOW.
FACT: Your not in the ONLY Church, practicing the ONLY faith as God would have it. Are you SURE your on the right path?
And I certainly do not believe that “all paths lead to God.” But I do not believe
that the Catholic path is the only way there. And reading here has actually convinced me of that more, not less
The CC is NOT the ONLY way to get there.
It is the WAY God chooses for us to get to heaven
And it is the SUREST way of getting to heaven.
Oh, and what is the “truth” that we are all missing, btw? That there are books in the Bible we don’t read, or that we don’t wear headcoverings? Those things have nothing to do with truth. Jesus was the truth. And all the Christian faiths I know of believe and preach that. Beyond that the rest is legalistic apples and oranges.
Friend, it seems to me I recall the words “All Scripture” is inspired by God and useful for teaching ect. ALL, Not some, not just what I choose to agree with; ALL!
Like I said, I don’t know why certain books are not there but I am not averse to reading them. I don’t think they will lead someone astray or something! Do you honestly think God will be more worried about that than how we lived our lives for Christ on judgment day??? (and I mean day-to-day life, not taking sacraments once a week or going to confession. those are ways you PRACTICE your faith, not how you LIVE it.)
It’s not “either or;” it’s mandate from God for BOTH!
Speaking of head coverings… last week I went to church with baby puke on me and I wore pants. Guess I’m definitely in for the flames now
You’re my kind of mom! Way to go! You’ve already paid the price on this one. J
I guess the bottom line for me is not truth vs. non-truth, I think we all basically believe [SHOULD and God desires WOULD ]the same things.
It’s how it has been said to be necessary to *do* certain things to really have the truth and be saved. The gift of salvation has nothing to do with acts by men in terms of rituals, because that is all they are, acts or rituals performed by man.
Kinda sorta; but not really. Read the Eucharist verses suggested above; you’ll find these exact words from Christ: “Do this in Memory of Me!”
It is the true change within the heart that leads one to salvation and keeps him or her there. And if that leads one to *practice* their faith by *doing* certain things, that is fine but I don’t believe for a minute that not *doing* those things will damn them.
It clearly and biblically has the potential too.
Take Up your Cross and Follow Me
Phil.2: 8 “And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross Luke.9 :23 And he said to all, “If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. Mark.8: 34 And he called to him the multitude with his disciples, and said to them, “If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. Luke.9: 23And he said to all, “If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. Luke.14: 7 Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple.” Matt.5: 19 “Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. “ Matt.19: 17 “And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”
I need Jenni! She knows scripture much better than me. I can’t just quote it off the top of my head (not a lot of it anyway).
Thanks for putting up with me.
Love and prayers to all,